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Post by Chicknboy on Jul 20, 2014 1:24:15 GMT -5
Hey, guys. Chicknboy here. If it wasn't obvious, it appears that our server may be on the brink of death. Advertising hasn't seemed to help much. We have a good amount of members, but what we really need is to spark everyone's interest again. I remember back in early 2013 when we added a second server to our name. It was modded, and even though I didn't play a ton, it was so much fun to have so many new things and so many more possibilities. So, since we can't afford to add another server unless we take donations (Which I don't want to do), me and a couple other have been considering switching from vanilla to modded. Now, a couple months ago we tried to do this and it caused a bunch of un-needed drama, with deciding which mod packs to use and all that. So instead of going with a pre-built modpack, we are building our own as we speak. Even if we decide to stay vanilla, maybe we could get some recognition through this modpack. So post how you guys feel about this, and be sure to vote on the poll! Please remember that this would mean no more vanilla server, as we only have one server. The map will be saved, and we can always go back if it doesn't work.
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 20, 2014 6:43:26 GMT -5
Personally I feel the need to play something less grindy and just more fun on a whole, I discussed it a bit with Foryx and Hobo a few days ago on mumble and I feel like it would be nice to have a bit more variation in what we can do, whilst not just grinding like some modpacks. I understand a lot of people just aim for the "end game" which is why its easy to get bored of modpacks, but for people who enjoy doing other things, there is at least more to do thats not just building or setting up villages like in vanilla. Only my opinion  Tindam |
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 20, 2014 6:47:33 GMT -5
I would be interested in hearing more opinions of people that would prefer vanilla, as in my opinion, you can do vanilla stuff in most modpacks without any issue
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 20, 2014 6:50:03 GMT -5
Sorry about the post spam, I just keep thinking of things  The other point is, will the server cope with modpacks? We have had some lag on vanilla and if the server will struggle on modpacks its definitely not worth it |
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mcn
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Post by mcn on Jul 20, 2014 10:02:48 GMT -5
I would be interested in hearing more opinions of people that would prefer vanilla, as in my opinion, you can do vanilla stuff in most modpacks without any issue I believe that the point of view you are expressing, tindam, is distressingly common among gamers. Vanilla plus other stuff is not necessarily better than vanilla alone. The ability to do more stuff is not always an improvement; more is not always better. The reason minecraft is fun, at least for me, is that it encourages creative play. If you want to play the technical game and build automated farms and other redstone contraptions you have to invent novel ways of accomplishing the task with the handful of basic components the game provides you. If, for example, you want to take redstone dust, pistons and hoppers and create something that will produce melons for you, you need to use some creativity. On the other hand, if you want to play the aesthetic game and just build cool looking things, then you have no choice but to exercise some creativity if you want to use the game's limited selection of blacks to make something that looks nice. I each case, the limits of the vanilla game force the player to be creative. Now look at most modpacks. If you want a machine that performs some task for you, then all you need to do is craft the machine and provide it with power, no creativity involved. What used to be a game about clever use of resources is now about direct payment of resources for a function. Aesthetic play suffers as well. There are so many things that you "have to" build in modpacks, the thaumcraft and ars magica alters, the railcraft boilers, the ic2 reactors, tinkers construct forges etc. that there isn't time or space for more interesting builds. Not to mention the huge number of additional blocks added by most modpacks. With so many choices of blocks, you don't need to be creative with the ones you have. I can't stand the chisel mod for this reason, it completely removes block choice as an important aspect of building. Furthermore, I feel that part of the appeal of playing minecraft in survival mode is the effort of acquiring resources. In vanilla survival you feel a lot more pride in your castle if you had to mine all the stone and place every block yourself. Building is hard in vanilla, and it should be hard because the hardship creates a deeper sense of pride in the finished project. I don't want mods to add the ability to fly, mass produce stone, easily acquire rare blocks, or place large areas of blocks quickly as these things cheapen this aspect of the game. If you want building to be easy you might as well play in creative mode. I also feel that a lot of mods shift the focus of the game to getting items. You brought up this issue, tindam when you pointed out the focus on "endgame content." Really, minecraft shouldn't have an "endgame" it should be about building until you are tired of building, not about getting better stuff until you have the best stuff. Ultimately, what is the point of getting items in minecraft? Who cares how good your armour or tools are, that isn't what the game is about. If you think it's fun just to acquire better items, then you should be playing World of Warcraft. Now, of course, some mods are better than others as far as the issues I have pointed out are concerned. For example, I think Project Red and Tinkers Construct are two mods that actually add some interesting gameplay, and I'm sure there are a lot other good ones, but on the whole, my experience with modpacks is that even though they add "content," they do not add to gameplay, and in fact they sometimes take away important aspects of the gameplay. I apologize for the overly long message, but I joined this server primarily to play vanilla minecraft, and I would be very disappointed if vanilla is no longer offered. I have played modpacks before, and I may even play for a little while if we switch, but whenever I play mods I always lose interest before too long and just want to return to vanilla. So I will be voting "no" to the switch, and I hope that others will join me in voting "no" as well. |
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 20, 2014 10:33:19 GMT -5
I completely agree to many of your points MCN, I agree that for many people, mod packs are a way out of being creative, and it can ruin the game, in particular mods like minefactory which just does things for you and all it takes is one block. My personal goal is modpacks has been to just continue on my vanilla experience, building things and making things that are not necessarily efficient but are more fun to build, a good example is using thaumcraft golems and the like to do tasks that one minefactory block could do with fewer resources. Now I guess to summarise my reason to want to go to modded; you use the phrase "building until you are tired of building" and thats my problem, I have spent a great deal of time on the past few servers, and have been very active in the past few months due to being housebound by illness, which has led me to get the feeling of "I have done that" whenever I get ideas in my head of what to do or build. I think even small changes, just a couple of mods for people to have a go with may be the middle ground? Please correct me if I am wrong. Again just my opinion and I see and even agree with most of your points MCN so I hope you dont take this personally or anything. Tindam |
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mcn
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Post by mcn on Jul 20, 2014 11:33:31 GMT -5
Tindam, I'm glad we agree on a few points, and I certainly don't take our minor disagreement personally If you think about it though, there are so many possibilities in minecraft that I'm surprised that you feel like you've done it all. Maybe I'm just easily excited, but there are so many architectural styles I haven't tried yet, so many machines I have never gotten around to building, so many blocks that I haven't used extensively in a build yet, that I don't see myself getting tired of minecraft any time soon. And there are also completely outside the box things to do in minecraft. You could be the guy who builds incredible pixel art, or the guy who builds giant statues of dinosaurs, or the guy who builds replicas of real world landmarks. There is inspiration everywhere. You can build literally anything, you really can't run out of stuff to do. And if you really have no ideas, you could be the guy that always collaborates on builds with other players, that is why we play multiplayer after all. As far as a middle ground goes, I tend to be kind of a purist about the vanilla/modded distinction. This is just my opinion, and I don't expect others to agree with me here, but as far as I'm concerned if you don't make a big change, i.e. only a few mods or mods that only make small changes, then you might as well be playing vanilla, so I am not likely to accept any middle ground, but that's just me, maybe others will. Not to mention the things we could do to change up the game without modding it. For instance, I always thought it would be fun to play survival mode on that giant 1:1500 scale earth map. Or we could do the thing the mindcrackers are doing on the new season with the world border, or do something with the new custom world generation. An idea I have been thinking about lately has been biome based land ownership. So for example you might own roofed forests and I might own swamps, so If I ever wanted dark oak or you wanted blue flowers we would have to trade. Suddenly the economic aspect of the game becomes more important. And I'm sure there are many other ways the game can be changed. I just think minecraft is so variable that there will always be new ideas and ways to play without needing mods. Vanilla minecraft has kept my interest for several years now, longer than any other game, pretty much, and I'm still having new ideas. -McN |
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 20, 2014 11:50:42 GMT -5
I think the other point is that I didnt want to just do my own builds, as I could just do that in my single player world if I wanted to, if we can come up with something different for survival mode I would definitely participate, yet at the same time, the prospect of starting all over again does appeal to me as I feel like I have done it too much in the last month already That would be cool, if we had a few more active members Tindam |
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Post by Sevansi on Jul 20, 2014 15:01:12 GMT -5
I'm on the fence of going to a modpack. I'm enjoying the vanilla server, the little bit I do play. I've got a lot of new games that I have been playing and having tons of fun on. So for me, even if we went to a modded server, I still wouldn't play like I used too. I mean, yeah I would play a little bit, but I wouldn't invest a whole lot of time into it. So I'm just going to leave my vote out, and let you guys decide instead.
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Post by Chicknboy on Jul 20, 2014 16:35:09 GMT -5
Be prepared for a rather large post right here, going to respond to all of you. I think that creating a mod-pack for publicity is a great idea. Although, the idea of replacing the vanilla server with a modded one doesn't appeal to me as much. I think that, similar to the vanilla server, activity on the modded server will start high at the beginning, but as time passes, members' activity will diminish. Even though activity on the vanilla server is down at the moment, that doesn't necessarily mean it won't pick up again. I doubt that this will happen by itself, so if we can put some of the ideas found on the forums (PVP Arena, Logo, etc) further into action there is a good chance that members will begin to play on the server more frequently. I realize that attempts have been made for ideas like UHCs, but haven't worked, due to the lack of members showing up. What I think might fix this issue, is if we start with projects on a smaller scale, so that they will require fewer members attendance and then work up to projects on a larger scale as collaboration throughout the server increases. Let me know if anything I wrote is unclear to you. I figured this decision wouldn't appeal to quite a few of you. That's why I put up the poll. I don't like the idea of completely removing the vanilla server either, but I think that we might get a bit more activity this way. And without activity, what's the point in having a Minecraft server? Yes, activity is bound to diminish after a while, but I feel that with modded, there's so much to do that you won't run out of things to do for a while. Activity has been down on the vanilla server for quite a while. Resets helped a little, we've had PvP arenas before, we've had villages at spawn where you can build your own building, and eventually no one would play. UHC was my latest attempt at getting more people interested in the server again, and no one came. I agree with the thought that collaborations should be on a smaller scale until we get more people, so maybe we could try something out like that, whether we go for modded or not. Personally I feel the need to play something less grindy and just more fun on a whole, I discussed it a bit with Foryx and Hobo a few days ago on mumble and I feel like it would be nice to have a bit more variation in what we can do, whilst not just grinding like some modpacks. I understand a lot of people just aim for the "end game" which is why its easy to get bored of modpacks, but for people who enjoy doing other things, there is at least more to do thats not just building or setting up villages like in vanilla. Only my opinion Tindam I agree with your first point here. I don't like the grindy mods, either. Like gregtech. I also like the mods that don't use many GUIs, because it feels like I interact with the game itself a lot more. Like in Ars Magica 2, you're not using a GUI to craft your spells, it feels like you are actually being a wizard guy. I'm kind of in the middle with your second statement. I do like rushing to the end-game in a lot of mods, only because the more fun things are at the end-game point. I only do this with mods that I really know, though. If I were to play with a mod that I don't know, I enjoy taking my time and really learning the mod. And what you said in the second half is almost exactly my point for liking modded Minecraft. I don't personally care for building amazingly detailed structures, I just like to make something look good and functional. I would be interested in hearing more opinions of people that would prefer vanilla, as in my opinion, you can do vanilla stuff in most modpacks without any issue Yes, to me it seems like you can do vanilla things in many modpacks without much issue. The only mod that I've seen that's completely removed anything from vanilla was Iguana Tweaks for Tinkers' Construct. It removed the vanilla tools and weapons, I think. Sorry about the post spam, I just keep thinking of things The other point is, will the server cope with modpacks? We have had some lag on vanilla and if the server will struggle on modpacks its definitely not worth it The recommended amount of RAM for a 10 player FTB server with 150+ mods is around 2GB. Our server has 2GB, we won't have over 150 mods, and probably never more than 10 players on at once. I would be interested in hearing more opinions of people that would prefer vanilla, as in my opinion, you can do vanilla stuff in most modpacks without any issue I believe that the point of view you are expressing, tindam, is distressingly common among gamers. Vanilla plus other stuff is not necessarily better than vanilla alone. The ability to do more stuff is not always an improvement; more is not always better. The reason minecraft is fun, at least for me, is that it encourages creative play. If you want to play the technical game and build automated farms and other redstone contraptions you have to invent novel ways of accomplishing the task with the handful of basic components the game provides you. If, for example, you want to take redstone dust, pistons and hoppers and create something that will produce melons for you, you need to use some creativity. On the other hand, if you want to play the aesthetic game and just build cool looking things, then you have no choice but to exercise some creativity if you want to use the game's limited selection of blacks to make something that looks nice.
I each case, the limits of the vanilla game force the player to be creative. Now look at most modpacks. If you want a machine that performs some task for you, then all you need to do is craft the machine and provide it with power, no creativity involved. What used to be a game about clever use of resources is now about direct payment of resources for a function. Aesthetic play suffers as well. There are so many things that you "have to" build in modpacks, the thaumcraft and ars magica alters, the railcraft boilers, the ic2 reactors, tinkers construct forges etc. that there isn't time or space for more interesting builds. Not to mention the huge number of additional blocks added by most modpacks. With so many choices of blocks, you don't need to be creative with the ones you have. I can't stand the chisel mod for this reason, it completely removes block choice as an important aspect of building.
Furthermore, I feel that part of the appeal of playing minecraft in survival mode is the effort of acquiring resources. In vanilla survival you feel a lot more pride in your castle if you had to mine all the stone and place every block yourself. Building is hard in vanilla, and it should be hard because the hardship creates a deeper sense of pride in the finished project. I don't want mods to add the ability to fly, mass produce stone, easily acquire rare blocks, or place large areas of blocks quickly as these things cheapen this aspect of the game. If you want building to be easy you might as well play in creative mode.
I also feel that a lot of mods shift the focus of the game to getting items. You brought up this issue, tindam when you pointed out the focus on "endgame content." Really, minecraft shouldn't have an "endgame" it should be about building until you are tired of building, not about getting better stuff until you have the best stuff. Ultimately, what is the point of getting items in minecraft? Who cares how good your armour or tools are, that isn't what the game is about. If you think it's fun just to acquire better items, then you should be playing World of Warcraft.
Now, of course, some mods are better than others as far as the issues I have pointed out are concerned. For example, I think Project Red and Tinkers Construct are two mods that actually add some interesting gameplay, and I'm sure there are a lot other good ones, but on the whole, my experience with modpacks is that even though they add "content," they do not add to gameplay, and in fact they sometimes take away important aspects of the gameplay.
I apologize for the overly long message, but I joined this server primarily to play vanilla minecraft, and I would be very disappointed if vanilla is no longer offered. I have played modpacks before, and I may even play for a little while if we switch, but whenever I play mods I always lose interest before too long and just want to return to vanilla. So I will be voting "no" to the switch, and I hope that others will join me in voting "no" as well. While vanilla plus other stuff isn't always better, some people think it is. You do what you want in Minecraft to make it fun. You like to build cool-looking things, I like to be a wizard who can teleport people to their doom, or drown them using voodoo dolls. When I first started playing modded Minecraft, I had a similar thought process that you have. Why add more when you already have a bunch of other things? Then I played by myself for a while, learned the mods one by one, watched some people play it, and I quickly had a change of heart and prefer modded Minecraft over vanilla now. I know that this probably doesn't happen to everyone, though. I don't like redstone, mostly because whenever I try to use it, it feels overly complicated just to make a melon farm. I don't feel like being creative and using 500 different circuits and whatnot just to build an auto melon farm, when I could use a few resources to have something do it for me. I've never been into redstone, and have never seen a point beyond making automatically opening doors. You don't think that the altars from Thaumcraft and Ars Magica look cool? Just imagine a dark room lit with balls of fire in the corner, and an altar surrounded by heads of slain monsters. Those altars and reactors and stuff inspire creativity in me, they don't force it. You say it doesn't allow for time or space to be creative. Who ever limited you on time to play? If you're limited on time because of work or something, then just take it slow and build when you want. The server will be there when you get off of work. Or space? Minecraft is a pseudo-infinite world. You have over 10 million blocks in each direction. I would say that's plenty of space. The Chisel mod just adds more creativity. If you don't like it, you don't have to use it. I personally love it, because it makes the build feel a little more distinct from other builds. Why would you want to be limited on what you can build with? I don't find the tedious task of mining stone for building to be fun, especially when there's only like 4 variants of stone that I can use. While I agree that things like The Igneous Extruder do feel a little cheap to use, I would rather use those than mine stone all day. Yes, creative flight can be a little bit cheaty early-game, but if you earn it by getting to the end-game of a mod, then I think you should be able to use it. As I don't focus on building, I like the items that let you place large amounts of blocks quickly, just for an easy shelter. If I'm building something that actually serves a purpose other than a quick shelter, I almost never use those items. Minecraft doesn't have an official end-game, and neither do any mods. People use the term end-game to refer to the highest tier of something. It's almost like if you were playing The Legend of Zelda, or Final Fantasy. You beat the last boss, have the highest tier gear, etc. and are at the end-game point, yet you can still go back and complete side-quests and stuff. Building is akin to a side-quest. This is how I see it when people refer to end-game in Minecraft, at least. You say that it shouldn't matter how good your tools and armor are. Well, you can't mine massive quantities of stone without a diamond enchanted pick, now can you? You can't fight off the hordes of zombies and skeletons that attack you with just a wooden sword and leather armor, can you? Well, you actually probably could. But still. You have a higher chance of surviving with higher tier gear. I've played World of Warcraft before. Modded Minecraft is nothing like it. Minecraft is what you make it. You want to make up your own quests? Go for it. It doesn't mean that you should go and play WoW just because you want some kind of goal. That's like saying that I should have an omelette just because I want cheese on my pizza. Again, all I can say is Minecraft is what you make it. I disagree with mods not adding gameplay, and sometimes taking away. I could sit at my computer for an entire day and play modded Minecraft without getting bored, while I could only play vanilla for like 20 minutes before leaving because I get bored with the lack of things to do that entertain me. Don't apologize for the long message. You're entitled to your opinion. I'm sorry that you joined this server to play vanilla, and now we're thinking of switching. I'll be sad to see you leave if you do, but I just hope that you might stay and give it a chance if we do switch. I think the other point is that I didnt want to just do my own builds, as I could just do that in my single player world if I wanted to, if we can come up with something different for survival mode I would definitely participate, yet at the same time, the prospect of starting all over again does appeal to me as I feel like I have done it too much in the last month already That would be cool, if we had a few more active members Tindam I also agree here, I joined this server when I first found out about multiplayer servers because I thought it would be really fun to hang out with other people who did things that I like to do. But I soon found out that the only group things we really did together were talking in the chat. I'm sorry if I sound aggressive or very defensive in my post, and I don't mean to shoot anyone's opinions down. I'm all for everyone speaking their mind, but I'm always ready to defend my opinions. Again, as I have said multiple times in this post, Minecraft is what you make it. There is no right or wrong way to play. I just want you all to remember that when discussing things here. _________________ Now, since I've responded to all the posts I feel like I need to, I have an idea. If we do go modded, then perhaps we could have everyone build within like 1000 blocks from spawn in either direction, and have just one big town. Either way, I think we should limit how far people can build, so that you're more likely to see others and help them out and things like that. Of course, you could go caving and adventuring and do other things like that past this border. |
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 20, 2014 17:25:36 GMT -5
So I have changed my vote... I have had time to think and after reading others opinions, and, despite the fact that I would really really like to do some modded minecraft, I have come to the conclusion that replacing the vanilla server is not the solution... My reasons are summarised in other people's comments, and one small additional reason is how volatile mod packs can be... What I do think we should try do is focus on what we've got, and do more so we can become a stronger community... One thing I'm thinking of trying is making some videos, I'm not saying many, or any people will watch, they might not be good, but I think it might be a way of connecting with other members in a different way... So yeah, I'm sorry if people really want the modded, I do too, but the removal of the vanilla server I do not think is the best decision. Tindam *little positive note as I can feel the tension in the thread... This communication is what sets up out from the majority of other servers, and it's a good thing |
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Post by Chicknboy on Jul 20, 2014 18:36:36 GMT -5
I agree too, but the thing is that those things alone won't get me back into vanilla Minecraft again. I love playing with all you guys, but having community interaction alone isn't enough. I won't be able to go into Minecraft and think, "Oh, I'll jump on CharcoalChewers even though I don't like vanilla Minecraft just because my buds are on there." I've done that in the past, and I end up leaving after 10 minutes. While community interaction plays a huge part in my interest in any game, it can't be the sole reason that I play the game.
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 21, 2014 4:19:34 GMT -5
I have a different proposition, we're going to be divided on this matter so... How difficult would it be to alternate? Maybe every week or something? Now at the same time I dont want to create work for Chickn, but its an option. I'm no admin but I am happy to try help with anything.
Tindam
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Post by rockingrobbie10 on Jul 21, 2014 7:07:01 GMT -5
I think that modpacks can be good, but only if you get the hang of them. I personally chose this server because it was vanilla, and It's cool, but Some people can't get into mod-packs (Like myself) and the game, and server, is just ruined. However, it depends on the mod-pack, because some are easier to get into than others, and some are Waaayyyy too grindy
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Post by tindam188 on Jul 21, 2014 8:23:52 GMT -5
Dont worry, that was my main concern with the idea, but I feel that people that want modded will not be around anyway if we stick just with vanilla... There is one other option, I do not have the money to host a server, but, I could host one from my computer. If this was the case, anyone playing modded will have to realise I cannot provide an incredibly reliable service, it will only be online when I can put it on, I am unable to leave my computer on 24 hours a day and there may come a time in the near future that I have to stop.
Its an option...
Tindam
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